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I read a thread here last year about the R320-CDI biodiesel question but apparently there's no further activity or long term follow-up to see how this fellow's CDI tolerated the biodiesel.
So I'll start another:
Any new info on burning spec 20-40% biodiesel in the CDI? I'd like to know how many miles driven and any problems encountered.
I've got an 07 ML CDI (not a BluTec) and want to run ASTM grade BD. Ofcourse I've read many stories and posts on the TDI club and MB forums about the dangers of using higher percentages (>50%) BD. Scary stuff; one poster whom I admire much that frequents these forums says he's seens several disasters; RME, SME, FAMEs all causing varnish build-up and coatings on injectors and rail surfaces, warranties voided, etc. WIllie Nelson's CDI apparently had problems burning high percentage BD also. But the Europeans seem to get away with using BD in their CDI's all the time. What's different about the US common rail diesel that it can't tolerate BD?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
GSH
So I'll start another:
Any new info on burning spec 20-40% biodiesel in the CDI? I'd like to know how many miles driven and any problems encountered.
I've got an 07 ML CDI (not a BluTec) and want to run ASTM grade BD. Ofcourse I've read many stories and posts on the TDI club and MB forums about the dangers of using higher percentages (>50%) BD. Scary stuff; one poster whom I admire much that frequents these forums says he's seens several disasters; RME, SME, FAMEs all causing varnish build-up and coatings on injectors and rail surfaces, warranties voided, etc. WIllie Nelson's CDI apparently had problems burning high percentage BD also. But the Europeans seem to get away with using BD in their CDI's all the time. What's different about the US common rail diesel that it can't tolerate BD?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
GSH
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Re: BioD in a CDI; long term data needed
Sun, February 15, 2009 - 3:26 PMI've been burning 5-100% BD in our 2006 e320 CDI for the last 2 years. And in our 1997 e300d for a solid 5 (a good solid 3 years of the e300d's service was with B100).
The 1997 has taken some maintenance. I just replaced fuel-related stuff for the 3rd time. B100 definitely has taken its toll. The fuel lines failed a few months after purchase (running B100). We replaced with Viton tubing and that seemed to last a couple of years. But had to replace lines again a year or so ago. This last time (3rd time around for the fuel system) it was some of the couplings and the fuel pump that had problems. More trivially, the biodiesel also ate a decent size hole in the fill-filler-spout gasket. We just rotated the (round) gasket so that the hole is on top of the spout and will go until the BD eats a new hole in the bottom again. I've been running a lot more B5 - B20 now that B100 is so expensive and that's definitely slowing the rubber-eating process.
My 2006 CDI is much newer, showing up around the time I was starting to run B20 (vs B100) the majority of the time. About 2 years in and no problems so far (knock on wood). But again, it's been mostly B20 in that vehicle. I think I'll probably stick with B20 (or less) in it. Maybe a tank of B100 every now and then (mixed in with a tank of what's already there). My experience with the 1997 has left me cautious about throwing B100 at the things.
I'm seriously considering a GL320 CDI for the fall. Plan to run B20 - B50 in it. Probably will not even try to throw B100 at it.
Hope that helps.
- grey -
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Re: BioD in a CDI; long term data needed
Sun, February 15, 2009 - 9:11 PMWhat is your source of Biodiesel? -
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Re: BioD in a CDI; long term data needed
Mon, February 16, 2009 - 12:01 PMFor the first few years (the B100 years in the 1997 e300d) I was getting it from Dr. Dan's in Seattle. This last few years I've been getting it from Williams Heating here on Vashon island.
I've asked them both where *they* get it and they say it comes from back East. I'm fairly sure it's standard stuff from a large mfg (vs something homegrown) but if there are more questions I should be asking I certainly can.
In the last 5 years I've run BD from those two sources in:
1997 e300d
2006 Passat TDI
2006 Mercedes e300 cdi
Home oil furnace
The biggest maintenance issue, by far, have been with the 97 e300d and the oil furnace. The e300 cdi and the Passat TDI have been problem free (so far. We traded the Passat in for the cdi, so we'll see how the cdi continues to do). But the lack of trouble in the TDI and cdi could possibly be because we got them later in the game and were not running b100 constantly. And they're nearly 10 years newer than the 97. I really pushed the 1997 e300d hard with B100 for several years straight.
Overall I have no real complaints about my experience. I pretty much got what I was expecting. Was very educational to watch the B100 slowly "melt" the rubber fuel-spout gasket. :-)
The home fuel furnace has had the most unanticipated problems. We did have to replace the fuel pump, but we expected that. The unexpected problem is that the jets clog a couple of times per winter and that's a PIA to deal with (when it's cold you really don't want your furnace to go away :-). We're running b20 this winter (vs b100) and that seems to be helping.
- grey -
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Re: BioD in a CDI; long term data needed
Tue, February 17, 2009 - 9:14 AMI'm curious if the fuel carries any certifications. Trying to track if on-spec fuel is causing problems with new technology engines.
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Re: BioD in a CDI; long term data needed
Tue, February 17, 2009 - 1:14 PMThanks so much for youor input Grey. Sounds like you're smart to use B20 in your CDI.
I am no expert on BD but understand the solvent properties enough to know it can dissolve rubber, plastic and other petroleum-based surfaces with time if used at high concentrations. I have a feeling that repairing your e300d is much less expensive than the CDI!!
I'll bet also that the type of veg oil-stock from which the BD was made has an effect on the solvent properties, along with several other of its physical and chemical properties. Thus, to address Doctor' s comments directly, if one could catalog each fill-up of fuel (let's say the vehicle had an on-board GC/MassSpec unit) that analyzed the exact BD components (FFA, degree of unsaturation, ester content, glycerin, water, salts, pH, fryer-oil contaminants, etc) then one could theorectically correlate engine damage (or lack thereof) with BD fuel type.
In the absence of such an analysis, we're left with a QC/QA report from batches of commercially produced and blended BD from the companies that supply it. If you can keep copies of those reports, dates and amounts used perhaps you could track engine status.
If you make your own BD and understand the feed-stock issues, at least you can decrease the variability between fill-ups.
I'll be making my own BD soon using the BioPro system and hopefully a constant source of WVO. The trick will be to monitor engine status; e.g. oil analysis, DPF, injectors, IP seals, etc.
Seems like a lot of work but, hey, what else is there to do on weeknights?
GSH -
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Re: BioD in a CDI; long term data needed
Tue, February 17, 2009 - 9:23 PMThe whole point of accredited fuel sources such as BQ9001 is that you dont have to have an onboard GC (which is a ridiculous concept) because you would know that the fuel has been tested by a centralized lab every step of the way.
The number 1 issue facing biodiesel production / transportation / consumption right is fuel that is off spec, contains excess levels of acids or other catalyst or any number of factors. The solvent properties of biodiesel can be exaggerated on natural rubber products if there is an excess of these contaminants or a shift in the pH of the oil. Feedstocks are obviously another factor, especially considering the formations of waxes, varnishes and gums. But unless you follow your feedstock from inception to consumption its impossible to track .
What really piques my curiosity is a fuel source that is actively taking out synthetic rubber lines as if they are natural rubber. I've got a piece of viton sitting in various batches of biodiesel for over a year now and I havent noted any significant deterioration of the line.
So thats the nature of my question. Really I give a damn as to the source 'back east somewhere'. But rather is it on spec, and if so who is it certified by. There are allot of shady operators out there and there is no sense in wrecking a good machine on bad fuel, biodiesel or not. -
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Re: BioD in a CDI; long term data needed
Fri, February 20, 2009 - 1:39 PMHi Doc,
We take for granted the quality of the fuel used in both gas and diesel cars. You are right that BD highlights the issues: if it's really BQ9001we feel better about using it--while accepting all the stated risks:
biodiesel.org/pdf_files/f...ve_%2020.pdf
GSH
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Re: BioD in a CDI; long term data needed
Tue, February 17, 2009 - 6:24 PMHi Grey,
I thought about getting the GL-CDI with the 3rd row seating, greater towing capacity and more space. It's gotten great reviews. You certainly couldn't go wrong with buying one and since they're so rare, resale market is hot.
I got the ML-CDI based on my reading of reviews and the better fuel efficiency. Same engine in both the ML and GL (and e320; best milage of the 3). Plus, I drove a Ford Expedition for the past decade and don' really need a bigger SUV at this time.
In either case, I've spoken with other owners of CDI's who have used B20; there seem to be little or no issues. One fellow in Colorado had a GL-CDI that he put B80 summer and B40 winter without any problems after 1yr. But not sure about how closely he monitors engine status.
GSH -
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Re: BioD in a CDI; long term data needed
Wed, February 18, 2009 - 6:46 PM>> I thought about getting the GL-CDI with the 3rd row seating, greater towing capacity and more space. It's gotten great reviews. You certainly couldn't go wrong with buying one and since they're so rare, resale market is hot. <<
They're awesome. Luxury SUV of the year in 2006 (or 2007?). Or something. If you need that kind of space and power (and have that kind of money) they're about the best thing out there.
>> and e320; best milage of the 3 <<
Mileage on the my 320 cdi has been just under 40. Get 37/38 highway regularly. :-)
- grey -
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Re: BioD in a CDI; long term data needed
Thu, February 19, 2009 - 7:59 AMYour e320 gets slightly less mpg as my 2004 jetta TDI and while I really like the TDI, I know the MBZ is such a nicer ride.
The only two downsides to the e320 USA model:
1) automatic tranny (why the hell do the europeans always get the best?)
2) price tag (but a used e320 cdi is nearly the same as a newer TDI)
GSH
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