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I saw that expression in a forum the other day and found it to be amusing. I'm not really a hippy in any traditional sense, so I suppose that it applies.
I've been pining away for a full-sized diesel powered pickup for quite some time now and finally got one. I specifically chose to get a '94-98.5 Dodge Ram 2500 with the 12-valve 6BTA as that particular combination is reported as having the best fuel economy for just about any full-sized pickup (18-23mpg and sometimes more). I considered a 4BT conversion into a half-ton truck, but I felt like that would require a little more effort that I desired.
I have the truck now. I burned through the remainder of what I assume is #2 diesel and am on my first tank of B20. I've a fuel filter in hand and intend to run increasingly run higher blends and see how it goes. This truck has likely been running on ULSD here in California for over a year and suspect that hasn't served the fuel system very well. I intend to R&R most of the lines and seals in the fuel system as I get around to it, simply because the truck is of the age where that sort of thing needs to be done. I also plan to do some updates which should make the truck more resistant to fuel problems, whether they're from #2 or bio.
I was under the impression that there were more fueling stations in and around the Berkeley area. All I can find are biofuels oasis and LC Biofuels, both of which require a membership of sorts. I was down in the south bay where I filled with B20 at Rotten Robbie who is offering it at retail at four of their locations. It was $3.73/gallon, about two cents cheaper per gallon than #2. After filling up and putting about 100 miles on the truck, fuel economy seems to be excellent (the needle is still above "F") and the truck seems to be running better. I'm not surprised, given that this engine wasn't intended to run on ULSD and blending with biodiesel makes up for the loss of lubricity and seal shrinkage. Also, the tailpipe emissions of B20 smells weird. Definitely different than B100 or #2 and definitely not as unpleasant as #2.
That's my story. I'll post more info later if I start to have any problems with fuel filtering and whatnot, what kind of fuel economy and performance. I might be heading through Ukiah next weekend which has a couple of retail stations selling B99 so I'll look to fill up there. Any advice about sourcing fuel in the Berkeley/Oakland area would be appreciated.
I've been pining away for a full-sized diesel powered pickup for quite some time now and finally got one. I specifically chose to get a '94-98.5 Dodge Ram 2500 with the 12-valve 6BTA as that particular combination is reported as having the best fuel economy for just about any full-sized pickup (18-23mpg and sometimes more). I considered a 4BT conversion into a half-ton truck, but I felt like that would require a little more effort that I desired.
I have the truck now. I burned through the remainder of what I assume is #2 diesel and am on my first tank of B20. I've a fuel filter in hand and intend to run increasingly run higher blends and see how it goes. This truck has likely been running on ULSD here in California for over a year and suspect that hasn't served the fuel system very well. I intend to R&R most of the lines and seals in the fuel system as I get around to it, simply because the truck is of the age where that sort of thing needs to be done. I also plan to do some updates which should make the truck more resistant to fuel problems, whether they're from #2 or bio.
I was under the impression that there were more fueling stations in and around the Berkeley area. All I can find are biofuels oasis and LC Biofuels, both of which require a membership of sorts. I was down in the south bay where I filled with B20 at Rotten Robbie who is offering it at retail at four of their locations. It was $3.73/gallon, about two cents cheaper per gallon than #2. After filling up and putting about 100 miles on the truck, fuel economy seems to be excellent (the needle is still above "F") and the truck seems to be running better. I'm not surprised, given that this engine wasn't intended to run on ULSD and blending with biodiesel makes up for the loss of lubricity and seal shrinkage. Also, the tailpipe emissions of B20 smells weird. Definitely different than B100 or #2 and definitely not as unpleasant as #2.
That's my story. I'll post more info later if I start to have any problems with fuel filtering and whatnot, what kind of fuel economy and performance. I might be heading through Ukiah next weekend which has a couple of retail stations selling B99 so I'll look to fill up there. Any advice about sourcing fuel in the Berkeley/Oakland area would be appreciated.
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Mon, November 19, 2007 - 11:23 PMThe membership to Oasis and the other NorCal biodiesel users' group stations is free, it's required by the state and they cna't do anything about it.
Mark -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Tue, November 20, 2007 - 12:53 AMThus the reason that I was so pleased that Rotten Robbie could sell it without a variance. -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Sat, November 24, 2007 - 1:08 PMLegally, they are not suppose to since it is an 'experimental' fuel. There isn't a variance or anything other kind of membership required, basically it is just a piece of paper required by the state that says, "yes I am aware this is an experimental fuel". Once you sign up at one fuel station you can then got to any fuel station in the state, without having to sign up again. You just need the number from the form you filled out.
The nice thing with B20 is that you get a vast improvement in the pollution characteristics, and it is a nice step to getting acquainted with the Biodiesel fuel.
Hope you enjoy! If you have any questions, you know where to find me...;-) -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 7:25 PMB20 can be sold without a variance. Look here:
californiabiodiesel.net/
Ukiah had a couple of stations that I meant to check out while I was there today, but I didn't have the time. I'm due for another fill up so I'll probably check out biofuel oasis or LC biofuels in the next day or so. This is an old truck, so I'm curious to see how it copes with B100. I've got a spare fuel filter on hand if it gets too bad. I'm also tentatively planning to go through the fuel system and replace most of the rubber seals and hoses. It's a '96, so they're likely made of viton, but after running LSD and then ULSD and now biodiesel, I can imagine they're not in the best shape and may be introducing air into the fuel. -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 9:34 PMWasn't aware of the bypass on the B20, thanks...:-) -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 4:09 PMI'm quite pleased about the lack of variance required for b20 for my own selfish reasons. Since the advent of ULSD, people have been looking for ways to restore the lubricity of the fuel with various additives. Generally, two-stroke oil is used. A study was down that showed that biodiesel as an additive to diesel #2 was most effective at restoring that lubricity.
For my own selfish reasons, I would be pleased to see b5 - b20 show up more commonly at places like Flying J. If the farmer's lobby gets their way, it will. -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 8:12 PMI would have to agree that I would love it if B20 was in more locations. Especially when I travel. I hate when I do a safety fill up over a mountain pass with regular diesel, but I'll never drive into a snowy remote area without a full tank of fuel.
The really nice thing would be that as it is more widely used by the diesel community, the pollution levels would drop significantly and perhaps make diesel cars much more attractive to the average consumer. The thing is that with the biodiesel calming the engine, the engines being better designed and more efficient, and the overall longevity, I think there would be good potential to reduce the vast market share that gasoline engines have.
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 8:27 PMULSD already has an additive in it to take the place of the the lubricating molecules.
(ii)
Lubricity. Regardless of the fuel sulfur level, ASTM D975 currently requires
lubricity specified as a maximum wear scar diameter of 520 micrometers using the HFRR test
method (ASTM D6079) at a temperature of 60°C. Based on testing conducted on ULSD fuels,
however, fuel injection equipment manufacturers have required that ULSD fuels have a
maximum wear scar diameter of 460 micrometers. EMA recommends that the lubricity
specification be consistent with the fuel injection equipment manufacturers’ recommendation.
The lubricity of ULSD is established under the following test:
[ASTM] IP 450, ISO12156 and ASTM D6079.
Now before we get too crazy here, less than 50% of the fuel tested at point of sale was on spec, and this was BEFORE the new ULSD standard. The lubricants additives happen after the diesel has been pushed through the pipeline to the distribution tank farm. This is where the oil companies all get their oil and put their additive packages into the fuel. In the case of diesel that's going to be either Grade No. 1-D S15 or Grade No. 2-D S15, green dye and a lubricant package, detergents, anti-corrosives and stabilizers etc..etc.. and whatever else CARB (for your state) has decided belongs in diesel .
The way that fuels are mixed up and down your likely to find yourself on either end of the ASTM standard depending on where you buy your fuel and which blend they happen to be into. Currently oil is being mixed for what is called "winter blend". Anyways I'm not gonna get heavy into the intricacies of regional oil engineering, as much as I love the topic I find it good reading for nights where I have insomnia.
B20 is good for increasing lubricity of petrol diesel, but if your gonna "splash mix" this on your own make sure you put the petrol diesel in first and then put the biodiesel in. Unfortunately biodiesel is still too small for it to be considered as a serious fuel additive (only 75 mmg in 2006), and frankly the petroleum industry is not only a little leery of the fuel quality problems that have happened in the past, long term storage stability and the fact that the additives that they have are cheaper than biodiesel and more effective in smaller quantities.
I've heard these lubricity myths before, but I have yet to see any proof that anyone has had any fuel that caused the demise of their vehicle. Both EMA and FIE have been trying to raise the lubricity standard since 2002, but the current test hasn't shown a real need for it. On the one hand FIE is tightening up the tolerances on injector nozzles and they want more, but on the other hand you have the oil industry who saying they can't justify putting more additive in and the added cost of removing the sulphur from the fuel when the current test has the wear within the acceptible limits for [ASTM] IP 450, ISO12156 and ASTM D6079.
Fascinating stuff huh?! Short answer run B20 or any mix thereof because you like the stuff. But as far as the general consensus is concerned their is no evidence that that the current standard established by ASTM D975 is inadequate lubrication for any diesel in current production. -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 9:10 PMI'm not contesting your assertion about what lubricity is required. However, there is this chart:
www.harm.org/~halbritt/i...Rtesting.jpg
Which is related to this study:
www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php
Which I've not ascertained whether it is genuine or not. If it is, the results are certainly interesting. I've read anecdotal reports of people having injection-pump problems since the change to ULSD, but that's about it.
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 9:32 PM -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 11:51 PMThanks for the charts I didn't have these before.
Ultimately I dont want to sound confrontational here. I'm not convinced either way. I will say the new cleaner ULSD has very similar solvent like properties to biodiesel and often when you swtich from conventional oil to synthetic on older vehicles that the "gunk" that had formed deposits inside the engine gets washed off and your start developing problems that you didnt have before.
However having said that I've heard people blame everything under the sun for parts failures except poor maintenance or high mileage or whatever. I operate a little over a half dozen diesels in every size/category everything from a 27 year old military surplus pickup, to van truck bodies to box trucks to fire trucks. A fine variety of diesels spanning across 3 decades and a fine selection of domestic and import manufacturers, and the only one out off all of those that has random out of the blue problems is the one with the least miles, the Ford. It's less than 10 years old and is working on having all of the injectors replaced. It had problems before ULSD and given the track record will continue too. Now out of all these trucks you would think that if ULSD was such a troublemaker that more of them would be having similar problems with their IP's and well they aren't.
Again I dont wanna sound confrontational, but I just dont see the evidence for this conspiracy of low lubricity. Just the other day I was chatting with a gentleman who was quite certain that biodiesel had caused all his engine troubles. and it goes on and on. FIE and EMA dont set the fuel requirements they are lobbies and lobbies are never happy. Instead of bitching about the requirements they should just make better equipment that deals with the reality of the fuel they have.
People dont like change. But its a fact.
Another fact is that anyone putting 2 cycle oil in a 2008 model year vehicle is going to be faced with replacing their emissions control equipment early *IF* and only if the ECU doesn't shut down the truck first to protect the emissions gear. Allot of folks don't understand that not only did the fuel change, but also the engines are changing. If you do something stuipid like put high sulphur off road diesel in a 2007 or 2008 diesel its not going to run for very long.
Anyways like I said I've heard both sides of the argument and I'm not swayed severely either way. More lubrication is better than less, but not at the sacrifice of emissions. 140 microns or 0.005 511 811 inch is the critical difference here? 0.005 511 811 inch kills IPs? I'm not sure the tolerances on the space shuttle are that high. *shrugs shoulders* It doesnt matter the standards are only gonna get stricter, not looser. Diesels will not be sold in this country before they'll get looser.
Lubricity is a sticky issue.... *sorry couldn't help it* ;^) -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Tue, November 27, 2007 - 12:06 PMThere is no conflict between my understanding and what you've written. My point essentially was that I am pleased by the fact that running a biodiesel blend in my '96 Cummins 6BTA not only improves lubricity but reduces emissions and also usually costs a bit less than straight #2 ULSD.
Everything that I have read regarding problems related to a particular fuel is based on anecdotal experience. That particular study is interesting in that it illustrates the weakness of some fuel additives, much to the chagrin of the manufacturers. However, the study in and of itself is fairly limited and as such, one can't really draw any strong conclusions beyond what it actually states. They tested untreated ULSD and the performance of 20 samples of various additives. It doesn't even begin to address the fact that commercially available ULSD already has an additive package, how consistently applied that package might be, and what interactions any of these products might have with that additive package. It also doesn't address the consistency of the products themselves as they only performed one test per product sourced from a single location.
That all having been said, I'm fairly confident that I understand the effects of LSD, ULSD, and biodiesel on tubing and seals in the fuel system. These fuels cause varying levels of expansion and contraction which can sometimes lead to failure. Given the age of the rubber (viton) on my truck, I don't feel that replacing it would be unreasonable. Air in fuel lines can harm fuel economy, which is something that I'm looking to maximize.
That all having been said, you mentioned propane injection in your diesel faq. I'm wondering if you're aware of data that shows that propane injection improves economy to the degree that it offsets the cost of the propane required. It seems that most of the diesel pickup guys are using it for added power and don't seem to be making up the cost of the propane. -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Tue, November 27, 2007 - 3:46 PMI hope I'm not sounding argumentative here. I'm just exchanging information with you and my opinion based on the information I have and also my experience. In this exchange I got a hold of some really cool charts I hadn't seen before. Lovin' the new info.
The use of propane is for the sake of adding efficiency and power to the engine. In this case it allows a diesel to more completely burn the fuel, leading to gains in efficiency. While you can look at this gain in efficiency in a Miles Per Gallon format and calculate your fuel savings that way, you do have to offset the cost of the propane. Installing the system and whatnot.
So does it save money. Yes and no. No not in the typical power adding setup. Having all the extra power on tap can make it tempting to step on the go pedal more. Some people put a piece of wood or half a brick under the go pedal to help increase their MPG numbers. The other controlling factor is the price of LPG in your area and the availability of bulk propane.
Most folks do this mod to add power to their diesel, this is especially true for diesels that may be modified so that they are flowing more fuel into the engine and thus producing gratuitous amounts of unburned fuel or black smoke pouring out from the tailpipes. Propane acts like a catalyst, but its also a fuel, so while it helps diesel burn better its also adding a little energy to the mix.
Normally in that situation you would want to size up your turbo so that you can pump more air into the engine to aid in burning of the extra fuel. In the absence of a larger turbo you can opt for propane injection. [within reason]
The efficiency gains are almost up to 100%, which is about a 10-20% gain over stock. Pretty impressive real world numbers huh?!
Another added benefit is lower EGT's. This is especially important if you have a truck and your hauling a heavy load up a big mountain. If your overfueled its really easy to blow big EGT's out your tailpipe and frag your engine. Adding propane allows you to lighten up on the go pedal, have added power AND have lower EGT's.
So yeah can you add efficiency and power to your diesel with propane, sure but as is allot of modifications for efficiency in diesels it also makes power. It all depends on how you drive after the mods.
Some things you can do to help your fuel economy. Make sure your tires have proper tire inflation, use a winter front, use highway tires instead of all terrain tires if you dont actually offroad, a cover for your truckbed if you drive a truck, run at least B10, synthetic sump oil, a piece of wood under the go pedal, add a cool air intake. Carry as little weight as is feasible in your vehicle. And if you really want to get crazy with it. Drop the suspension close to the ground, tape all the seams on your vehicle and put a flat pan on the bottom on your vehicle to minimize drag. All the old racing tricks for maximizing fuel economy.
What kind of diesel do you have? I may have a chart laying around somewhere with the best mods and combinations of mods to make both more power and better efficiency. I know I keep harping on that, but in the world of diesel those two are closely related. -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Tue, November 27, 2007 - 4:13 PMI should have added that the reason you put a block under the go pedal is that the propane system has a proportioning valve to control the vapour flow to correlate with the boost from the turbo. Since the efficiency goes up you can get similar or better *depending on how your system is setup* power without having to mash the pedal so hard. Allowing you to conserve both fuel oil and propane and take full advantage of the efficiency gain and the diesels torque and newfound power.
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Tue, November 27, 2007 - 4:31 PMwhy don't guys just go off and have sex already ;)
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Tue, November 27, 2007 - 4:41 PM> I hope I'm not sounding argumentative here.
You're not coming off as argumentative, except for the part where you keep mentioning that you're not trying to be argumentative. It's cool, man.
I'm familiar with how propane injection works, though the additional info is helpful. Though, I'm still wondering about the cost/benefit analysis. This is the nicest kit I've seen:
www.msdignition.com/dpi_kits.htm
However, it costs a bit over $800 and I wonder whether it can be detuned for economy. User experiences suggest that it provides a great deal of additional power, little benefit in terms of fuel economy.
The truck in question is a '96 Dodge 2500 which is 4WD and is intended for offroad use. I do intend to optimize for economy and power, which I feel is quite possible. A free-flowing exhaust and intake are in the works. I'd also like to use airbags not only to give a softer ride when it's unloaded, but also to adjust the ride height to lower the truck for highway use.
Nothing has been done to the fueling system as yet, but I do plan to add new injectors and do some fuel pump mods, including a custom fuel plate, work on the AFC, etc.
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Wed, November 28, 2007 - 4:43 PMI am driving 7.3 direct injected diesel was looking at the diesel secret stuff. Dont know enough to go that way.was wandering about info on prpane injection. I see you said you have info on the benifits and charts. Please e-mail them to me and any thing else to help with the cost of this fuel. -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Wed, December 5, 2007 - 12:01 PMIt's not secret if your using something as a solvent to cut WVO/SVO so that you can single tank it your taking a risk. I'm not a big fan of these products because I dont believe their is any such thing as an elixir solvent [or things used similarly as solvents] that allows you cut oils of different lubricities using some silly fantasy percentages equally. While I cannot agree that excessive lubrication is good for a diesel I can tell you categorically that not enough is completely fatal.
"Diesel Secret" main two ingredients are xylene and naphthalene. Xylene is a solvent from the benzene family and Naphthalene also in the benzene family is a hydrocarbon... a HYDROCARBON! How can anything claim to be not only *LIKE BIODIESEL* but actually "TRUE BIODIESEL" and its adding Benzenes and Hydrocarbons to fuel acting as solvents to your fuel!!!! It does nothing to stop fuel with this concoction of chemicals and WVO from gelling, and depending on your feedstock of oil could reduce your diesel fuels ability to resist gelling and reduce the lubricity!!!
WVO/SVO needs to be heated. WHY? because its a thicker viscosity than your IP (Injector Pump) or lift pump are intended to pump, but regardless of that the oil does not take on heat fast enough to atomize properly in the short heat up period from the IP to the Injectors.
Diesel Secret is crap, it stands a chance of damaging your engine in the long term and it makes your emissions *WORSE* actually *WORSE* than running regular old petrol diesel. It really makes me wonder what the L is going on over at EPA that allows folks to mix up any crap and call it a miracle "BIO" diesel fuel additive. Since when can you add benzenes and hydrocarbons and still have the nerve to put "BIO" anywhere in your advert?
Anyways I've addressed this issue before in this thread: tribes.tribe.net/dieselpow...7d4c44b5b7
At fear of constantly repeating myself I'm gonna let that end their. What year 7.3 DI diesel are you driving? -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Thu, December 6, 2007 - 8:56 AMI think the answer to your question is that the truth in advertising and consumer protection laws in this country have been so thoroughly gutted that almost anything goes, leaving consumers with only the option to file a large and expensive civil suit of their own against such predatory companies, who of course have a massive financial advantage due to their ill gained profits. -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Thu, December 6, 2007 - 12:29 PMCaveat emptor. Consumers also have the option of not purchasing a given product. -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Sat, December 8, 2007 - 8:56 AM>Caveat emptor. Consumers also have the option of not purchasing a given product.
Too true, sadly though, far too often people do not have the information up front to make an informed choice, which is where the false advertising problem comes in, thus leading to far more after the fact law suits.
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Sat, December 8, 2007 - 11:24 PMI don't find that to be sad. I have a strongly libertarian bent, so you can imagine my ideology doesn't really correlate with yours. I firmly believe that it is the responsibility of the consumer to make an informed purchasing decision. Further, I also believe that consumers in this day and age are more well equipped for that than in any time past. It is simple enough to do a little research about the companies from which one chooses to purchase goods and services.
What I find to be particularly unfortunate is that it seems that there are few people that can discern fact from opinion and fewer still that understand the nature of anecdotal experience. The information exists, it is the consumer that will need to evolve to present conditions.
On a completely different note, I'm running on B75 or thereabouts at this point. I signed the variance at Biofuels Oasis in Berkeley and picked up 3/4 tank of B100 at something like $4 per gallon. The truck smells like a french fry now.
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Wed, November 28, 2007 - 9:28 AM> B20 is good for increasing lubricity of petrol diesel, but if your gonna "splash mix" this on your own make sure you put the petrol diesel in first and then put the biodiesel in.
I wonder what your reasoning is for this suggestion? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Wed, November 28, 2007 - 12:12 PMDifferent specific gravities of the fuels. Splash mixing is the least reliable way to mix bio/diesel so if your going to mix the two you want to put the lighter diesel in first then put the bio-d on top of it so it mixes through. -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Thu, December 6, 2007 - 12:34 PMThanks for the follow-up. I'm still looking for hard data on the efficacy on LPG injection on fuel economy. If you see something, let me know. -
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Re: Biodiesel: It's not just for hippies any more.
Fri, December 7, 2007 - 2:39 PMI'm working on it. I've got a posting in the works I actually have several request out for technical data from manufacturers. I had to send these by snail mail because emails often go unanswered. Are you looking for data on fuel efficiency or fuel economy?
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